Obamacare holds everyone responsible for paying for their own health care coverage. What's wrong with personal responsibility? I thought that was a conservative value. By not requiring personal responsibility, all of us taxpayers have to cover the costs of the freeloaders who go to emergency rooms without health care coverage. I guess being libertarian and being personally responsible for your health costs don't go hand in hand.

It is absolutely stunning the number of americans stuck on dumb regarding healthcare delivery in the U.S I guess if you live near a pig slurry you don't smell it
as it really is. Having lived in several countries with superior healthcare delivery programs I know how the american insurance paying public is getting a corporate screwing. Folks, tweak the President's program. It's the best hope of starting to get the insurance casino off your payroll.

Constitutionality aside, how does Obamacare fix anything? You can three types of healthcare: cheap, quick and good. But, you can only have two at a time. Obamacare will not change that fundamental contraint.

And Justin, government exists to serve the people, not the otherway around. That quote from JFK is frightening.

You know ... none of this sh!t really matters. Polls, charts, opinions (like mine) studies, conferences, think-tank results. You will get the health care your dumb asses deserve or can afford - nothing more and, in most cases much less.
Forums like this serve to soothe the savage beast.

OK Ralphie - "Which countries are you talking about?"
England, Italy,France, Canada, Belgium, Luxemburgh, for starters.
" I know a number of people who have lived in England who said that the health care system was terrible. Same for New Zealand." They have the same head-in-the-sand profile as you ... bitch and moan about a 'foreign' system but refuse to see the U.S. healthcare delivery system as it really is.
Ohai - you don't know WTF you're talking about since you have never lived using a single-payer system. BTW, you didn't answer any of my questions.
"... the present system of healthcare delivery in the u.s. is just fine? "
"There are no areas you can describe as broken?"

Ohai said, tounge-in-cheek: "Well, since you asked so nicely" Well,you know I didn't. Thanks for hanging w/me on this.
Individual taxes in Europe are much higher than in than in the U.S. My numbers are not accurate but 35-40% off the top of your pay packet. You pay 18-19% VAT, value added tax on purchases. The price advertised or the one you see is what you pay. No surprises at the checkout stand. Part of the taxes (non-VAT) fund a national health insurance plan, AOK, that all citizens participate in. No exceptions. Other portions of the tax fund other vital services. I don't know how to explain more because it was "transparent". There was never a question of affording to see a doctor.
If wealthy individuals want more coverage they can purchase more at a higher premium price. Healthcare providers bill your policy and send the charges against your policy to a central billing agency. Billing is done every three months. Of course healthcare is not free. Folks from Canada can afford to do so. There are very wealthy and very rich Canadians. The Marshall Plan was instrumental in establishing the model for many European counries. Unfortunately, the history of the linking of healthcare to employment is one I have read about but I'm not smart enough to get into that discusssion. Ohai, you and everybody on this thread just HAVE to believe that we can do better.

Sorry, pls forgive my spelling errors. Don't have a word pgm and it's late here.
Thx for the verbal jousting. Peace and happiness to you and relatives!
David

David you really have to stop drinking the blue Kool Aid and get a clue. If the healthcare systems in those countries you listed are so wonderful why are there slews of people from those countries and others with socialized healthcare flocking to the US for medical procedures they cannot or do not want to have performed in their own hospitals? I know this to be a fact because I have friends and family that work at both University Hospital and Hopkins that see patients from other countries on a daily basis. Several of the countries with single payer systems do not allow basic preventive procedures like mamograms without multiple referrals because they are considered frivolous and do not provide for basic skin cancer treatments because it is considered a "self inflicted" condition.

The problem with our system is not the insurance companies it is the malpractice attorneys and their frivolous lawsuits with no tort control and not removing the interstate restriction on insurance companies to allow for a competitive market that would instantly bring the price for basic health insurance down to far more affordable levels. And as long as states such as Maryland have former and current insurance industry officials on the insurance commission we will never have true reform even if Obamacare was upheld. In fact it would become far worse as insurance companies would have no incentive to be competitive when everyone is forced to buy their product.

JustABill - bullshit in a run-on sentence "The problem with our system is not the insurance companies it is the malpractice attorneys and ..." bla bla bla. Insurance companies ARE the problem! You have to get beyond apologizing for their monopoly then you will be better prepared to take an objective look at healthcare delivery problems in the U.S.
Incidently, regarding your "slews of people from those countries and others with socialized healthcare flocking to the US for medical procedures" comment: these are not common folk ... they are wealthy and not unlike the "slews" of wealthy U.S. citizenz fleeing to clinics in Dubai and other countries for medical treatment.

This article has good info:
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/06/health-care-as-privilege-what-gop-wont-admit.html

Obamacare is certainly not the answer. I say ... OK ... where the fu#k IS the answer. WHO, in this great land is proposing 'THE ANSWER"? The answer: NOBODY - NO FUC#ING BODY. Plenty of nay-sayers, obstructionists, and stonewallers weighing in but NOBODY other than the President ... DOING something.

Tell me ... who in your short live has tried to do ANYTHING about the rip-off the health insurance companies have been employing? The Affordable Healthcare Act is the only recent attempt to put a brake on this stuff. NO IT IS NOT PERFECT.
No more or less perfect than the other programs designed to be social safety nets for less fortunate members of our society.

I love the people who think they will magically think they will never need to use health care of any significant magnitude. Just because you never had to use health care, doesn't mean you won't at any minute. And, don't think for a second that because you can get some health care at an ER that you'll be able to get all your care or more importantly, the RIGHT care in an ER. Do you know anyone who is able to get their chemo treatments at the ER? Two of my three sons were diagnosed with an incurable chronic illness within a month of each other (at ages 6 and 13). We have no family history of the disease and it literally appeared out of the blue. They take medication daily that keeps them (hopefully) in remission. If they need to go to an ER, that will mean that we're not managing their illness well, which would also likely mean that they aren't well enough to go to school (and when they're older, work). So, having the option of just "going to an ER" for health care, is in many cases, very ill-advised because by then, you're sicker than you need to be, which makes your care even more expensive.

JustABill
David, I must commend you on your complete and utter failure to not only prove your points but also your blatant disregard for keeping this a well mannered civil discussion.
Sorry Sweet Cakes ... so sorry your ears (eyes) are so sensitive. I believe if my choice of verbal tools is THAT offensive the modertors would have seen fit to not publish my post.

Ohai - No hope for you. You say with conviction "government is involved neck-deep in HC at every level. From regulating doctors on the supply side, to requiring hospitals to treat people on the demand side." I say BS ... sounds like a talking point. Cite neck-deep gov't involvement in healthcare delivery. Yes, licensing doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and others is governed as well the process should.
You got a problem with hospitals having to treat ALL patients?? THEN you have the gall to suggest that if I don't like health insurance companies ... START MY OWN??
You get scre##d, fool. That is as stooopid as saying ..." America, love it or leave it"

Read Alissa's post. Try to grow the @@@@ up.

Melissa - She writes "With the money that I save by NOT paying weekly premiums, I can go to the emergency room if ever necessary. I have found to pay MORE in premiums than on actual care. And if I don't happen to have the money at the time, well that's what CREDIT CARDS are for. "

This person is one or two characters: a stone-faced liar OR an outpatient from a mental hospital.

Question: What are two of the most expensive, intensive education markets in the U.S.?
Answer - Medicine and Law.
Question: Name the two most powerrful unions in the U.S.A.?
Answer: The American Bar Association, and the American Medical Society.

Try to imagine how long the average doctor in any discipline must work to satisfy his education loan! Then ask yourself why your healthcare costs so much. Ask yourself or the AMA why there is a severe shortage of GPs and geriatric specialists. Then ask if there are any (management) controls regarding numbers of specific disciplines being trained for the workforce. Union thugs? A bit of a stretch but worth giving more than casual thought.

At the risk of being attacked or worse yet, looking like an Obama supporter, I will offer that David is correct in his analysis. I have 25 years in the insurance industry and am a businessman. For me it comes down to what is the cost to administer our healthcare system for equivalent care. Few would argue that Medicare doesn't have the absolute worst risk pool (elderly, poor & disabled) yet even with billions in fraud it costs about 3% to administer the total cost of benefits. Private healthcare is 17-20% at best. Why? Profit and corporate overhead. It's not sustainable and like it or not, Obamacare is at least a step in the right direction.

Ohai, first allow me to offer an apology to you and others who are reading our posts.

I am passionate regarding healthcare delivery. No doubt. I believe in the U.S. I enlisted in the Army twice for patriotic and personal reasons. Terms carelessly tossed around (ponzi scheme) denigrate the reason for Social Security or Medicare. The history of Social Security is littered with controversy and attempts to either disable or dismantle the program. No agency can deliver a piece of mail cheaper than our USPS. What I am trying to say is this. How ever health insurance became linked, wedded, or welded to employment was a tragic mistake. They have to be delinked and profit motive removed. Government provides services cheaper than most enterprises performing similar services. You needn't believe this but when the numbers are examined, (Ross Dangel's experienced analysis) you cannot deny the numbers.
My koolaid is flavored with direct experience with superior healthcare delivery systems. What we have is a cheap imitation.

There are fewer situations so sad as listening to a man complaining he has no shoes who then sees a man with no feet. Or a man with ears who cannot hear .. or the one with eyes who refuses to see. I must respect your position but I cannot, as aman, agree with anything you post.

Supreme Court Health Care Decision: Individual Mandate Survives

Should the Supreme Court overturn Obama’s healthcare bill?
Yes 204 (53%) No 171 (45%) Unsure/other 3 (0%)
Total votes: 378

Thank you PATCH NETWORK , Lisa Rossi and your staff of moderators.
Thank you Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States John Roberts
Thank you Alissa, Ross Dangel, Brian, Ralphie, Ohai, and JustABil