Having raised 3 teenagers, I truly believe that the problem is that they go to bed too late. They want to stay up texting their friends and being on the computer. My kids played sports and did their homework and unless there were extenuating circumstances, they were in bed by 11. Getting up at 6:15 gave then the 7 hours they needed. If you go to bed late all the time you are resetting the body clock.

Anita, I agree that we as parents need to limit texting, tv, an PC (screen time) before bed time. However, a bigger problem is that not only do our teens need 9 hours of sleep a night, their body rhythm or circadian rhythm changes as well. Studies show most teens are not able to fall asleep or get productive sleep until 11:00pm. If our kids are up at 6:00 to catch the bus, that is only 7 hours of sleep, not the 9 they need. Check out this journal article from the JAMA Pediatrics:

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=383436#qundefined

This study recommends our teens not wake up until 8:00 - starting school closer to 9:00. The science is very comprehensive. It's not the bed time, its the start time.

I wonder how, not so many years ago, millions of children not only made it through high school, but did so with better attitudes and better grades than the teenagers of today. A later start time would have one big advantage. I'd be safer walking in the early morning hours. Their disregard for others is appalling. Sad to say, but the parents are just as bad. I continue to have hip problems because of being run off the road into a ditch while walking. And no, we do not have sidewalks or street lights. It's about time people started thinking about someone other than themselves.

half the support for start times deals with child care for kids. What ever happened to parents raising their own kids. If parents were there when kids went to school AND were home when they got home then the drug/sex issues would be minimized, child care issues non existant, and perhaps then parents could minimize computer/text interactions so the kids could get to bed at a reasonable time. .

What difference does anyone think this will make? High school kids will just stay up later and still be sleep deprived. How about parents, being parents and making them go to bed and not be out late on school nights?

Please, how about parents being parents and making sure their kids go to bed at a decent time?
Generations have gone and survived going to school early. The difference is that the inmates are now running the asylum .
I see kids out and about during the week at midnight. Where are the parents?
These last two or three generations have become soft and everything is somebody else's flat and never their own.

Did either of you two listen to the remark that going to bed earlier wouldn't help? It's a physiological issue, not a social one. Teenager sleep cycles are geared to not start until 11 p.m.; putting them to bed at 10 p.m. or earlier does nothing but leave a bored teenager sitting in their room for an hour or more.

There is no evidence for an average start time for public schools throughout the 20th century. We can use all the anecdotes we want, but until we compile information from a significant and varied U.S. population, you cannot say that generations have been at the current time. (My own memory of high school says school started at 8:15 a.m., which is still later than current start times.)

Second, it is fallacy to make claims that earlier start times in the past worked fine without looking at other sociocultural factors. Even if an average start time was "early", there were plenty of other factors. Family life, attendance, requirements, safety, and overall educational culture were far different in the mid- to early-20th century than they are today.

The fact remains, from a scientific viewpoint, that teenagers need a later school start time. Their sleep cycles don't start until well after 10 p.m. and they need 8 to 9 hours of sleep for healthy development. That means their wake time should be between 7 a.m. and 8 a.m... which means current school start times are way too early (especially when they need an hour or more to get ready and there).

How about night school? Do you think a 1/2 hour start time would be any different? How about not letting them play computer games all night? When I was a teenager, I read a book until I was drowsy enough to turn off the lights and go to sleep. They can't sleep because they're on the computer all night, playing games and socializing. Or they're just out with friends, doing what? They don't do anything to wear them out and make them tired enough to go to bed. My hs started at 7:30am. I was out the door every morning at 7 for a brisk walk to school. And just the luck, we'll get their start time later and they'll be whining and complaining about having to stay in school longer in the day. You know i"m right! :)

These kids are wusses. No time change. It prepares them for the real work world.

Gees, I worked for the corporate world in an office. The 3 jobs I had started at 8am and ended 4:30pm or 5pm. Sorry Brook, it does prepare them and it is logical. My husband whose an Engineer works from 8am to 7pm. My construction workers work from 7:30am to 4pm. My sister a nurse works from 8am to 6pm. Farmers work from 5am to 5pm or until dark. Gees, most jobs do work during the day. Yes, some jobs have other shifts, but I am sure the marjority is during the day. Kids need to work out their sleep schedules to what is required of them. These school hours were good enough for me in the 1970s and 1980s, they are good enough for them now. They need to stop goofing off and be more serious on their bedtimes. Stop the whining!

There should be more reports on parents NOT parenting and kids running around at night instead of doing homework or going to bed early.
It's simple no need for wasting money on reports. You have a child make sure they are in bed by 9a. See simple! No money wasted.

Obviously crack of dawn school hours aren't the only cause of teen sleep deprivation, but they play a major role in it and - unlike the many other factors - are ones we can change overnight with proven results, including more sleep per night (see http://www.startschoollater.net/myths-and-misconceptions.html).

The move to extremely early school hours - which began only about 30 years ago, mainly to save $ on buses - was a mistake, something we did before we knew much about teen sleep patterns and needs. And when you consider the compelling and consistent research now out there on the impact of these early hours on health, safety, school performance, equity, and even long-term economic prospects, you have to ask why people are so defensive about the value in sending teens to school from 7 am - 2 pm.

Asking as this petition (http://signon.org/sign/changing-howard-county) does that no child be required by law to be in class before 8 am is hardly radical. These teens are still children, with growing brains and bodies, and comparing them to adults, many of whom have some degree of control over their work hours, is pointless; it’s like saying infants shouldn’t nap so they can get ready for fifth grade. Just because we've done something one way doesn't mean it's necessarily the only or a desirable way to do things (we also thought seatbelts and bike helmets were for "wusses"). - Terra Ziporyn Snider, PhD, Executive Director, Start School Later

Physiology my foot. All these new fancy words and studies. We have survived going to school early for decades.
The new cream puffs with the non parenting parents need to learn that when you leave school, college, or wherever they end up, they are going to have to get up early to go to work!

IF the system would just let the parents worry about their kids & not force this study or that finding down our throats, I'm sure we're more than capable of handling. How many times does society change what they are doing to find out that the study they are touting actually isn't accurate or wasn't performed in a truly scientific manner. I started school at 7:20am and had no issues with it and that was over 30 years go. I start work at 6:30am an hour from my home so I can actually be at home monitoring and parenting my children when they are home from high school. The comment about kids being allowed too much TV, Computer, Cell phones it spot on. Be a parent! The school system should spend their time and our money worrying about the teachers they have in the system who are terrible, don't teach, don't discipline unruly kids and figure out how to get them out!

Good policies are based on good information. Mr. Hubbard is right. Your district leaders would be wise to acknowledge the science behind this issue. The evidence regarding the consequences of adolescent sleep loss and early high school start times is overwhelming: http://startschoollater.pbworks.com/w/page/60413030/Entire%20Reference%20List

Sleep is important for physical growth (height), neuron growth in the brain, long-term memory storage, and general well-being. As a person who was in high school not all that long ago - class of 2000 I can give some insight about my experiences and why I would advocate for later school starts. I was involved in school sports (wrestling), socializing both on the net and in real-life, and - yes I did work when I was old enough to do so. It is quite a bit to juggle when you always feel as if you don't have enough sleep nor do you have much experience (or discipline) to perform these tasks with consistent efficiency. When you are a teenager school is important, but not just for learning - it is a catalyst for socializing, daydreaming, confronting identity issues, feeling like you belong and finding out that basically you are ill-prepared for what may come afterward whether it be college, trade school, or the working world. The energy it takes for psychosocial and physiological development during that period is unmatched the rest of your life. Ask any teenager and the majority will tell you they need more sleep and more than anyone else at any time. So starting school a little later to get perhaps even just one more hour can possibly make all the difference in the world. Parents could be there more or you can discourage "undesirable behaviors", but that really is not the bottom line. Opinions about what is right or wrong have nothing to do with the physiological needs of kids.

Nicely put, Aaron Brager!
I can certainly appreciate the dialogue on this article. I wanted to remind our readers about a few facts that do need to be considered.
Early school start times are a recent phenomena. These early (before 8am) school start times only started happening in the late 1960's, in direct response to saving money on bus runs to our increasingly large and centralized school systems. Sleep research wasn't even in existence then because no one expected people to operate under less than 6 hours of sleep. Now, however, we are finding that it is not just Johnny "being lazy and irresponsible". Poor Johnny is now expected to go to school before the recycling is taken out, travel in dark and unsafe roads, put in a day in school, practice a sport for 2-3 hours a day, work a part time job and have more "well rounded" experience in other extra curricular pursuits. Well intentioned students are far from lazy and have a constant demand to produce and yet they are not given the 9 hours, yes 9 HOURS of sleep that their growing bodies need.

The idea that "we've always done it this way" is completely untrue. For more myths and misconceptions about later school start times, I urge you to read the link that Terra already shared above: http://startschoollater.net/myths-and-misconceptions.html

I'd just like to commend Brook for sticking to the facts. Adolescent body clocks are different than young children or adults AND start times did not used to be so early.

I'd love to recommend this change in policy to Baltimore Public Schools as well. I teach/tutor and kids aren't paying attention because they can't even keep their eyes open. These kids are not just running around at night either; they are given mounds of homework to do every evening, chores, showers/dinner, and hopefully some downtime to socialize/play/relax. On the weekends they sleep past 12:00 p.m. These kids need more sleep!

I think before we rely on a few sources, get research that opposes this Scientific evidence. One person brings evidence to support his wants, there is evidence to oppose.
When you change time, I don't think people are considering that less students are able to participate in after school programs.
Seems like we are catering to a few who found research to favour their view. Anyone can find research today to support anything.

I hope anyone who agrees with the idea that school should start later will sign the Howard County Petition at: http://tinyurl.com/sslhoco Then join us on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/136868756472888/

I totally support a later start time especially for my two high schoolers. I am also a substitute teacher in the county and see tired, tired kids in class. HOWEVER I think the entire school process needs to be examined NOT JUST start times. If we are truely interested in brain development, biological rhythms, ect then we need to look at the whole package not just individual components and consider "unintended consequences". For example, if we adjust start times just an hour later, yet homework and sports practices continue unadjusted, then all we are doing is pushing homework until midnight from 11pm (my kids have on average 4 hours plus a nite) and sleep is still deprived. Does a kid really need 25 math problems for homework or will they still learn with only 10? If they have to read 3 chapters enough what is going on in the classroom that prevents them from doing it there, where it should be done. Many studies (since we are relying on studies in this on line discuss) show homework does little if nothing to support learning, but the kids still get it assigned to them (just ask a teacher why they assign so much, most often you will get an answer like "i just think the kids need it?) Let's look at the whole package before we invest great sums of money before looking at all the consequences. Later start times, combined with more effective teaching methods, AND updated data based homework strategies can all lead to kids who learn more, and more effectively.

I always thought that elementary, junior high and high school start times were scattered because of bus availability. Would switching the start times between elem and high school be reasonable?

Great conversation!

What if we re-imagined school, forgot about what WE used to do, and put all of our pre-conceived notions aside. Would we design it exactly as it is today? Are there any ways we can improve upon the education our adolecscents and teenagers receive?

I would personally like to see my middle school child have recess & a chance to run around outdoors. I would rather if teachers didn't resort to yelling - ever. It would be great if there were more electives, less busy-work, less waiting for other kids to catch up, more child-driven & exploratory learning.

I would prefer if decisions about the school day schedule were set by educators who looked at scientific research spanning over 20 years that indicates children post-puberty experience a sleep phase shift that makes a 5:30 a.m. wake-up call for them the equivalent of a 3:30 a.m. wake-up call for me. I don't function well without the recommended sleep for my age, and I don't believe kids do either. For my high schooler to get 9.25 hours of sleep on a school night and still catch the bus on time, she would have to be asleep at 8:00 p.m.

It's an out-moded schedule that needs to be re-imagined.

Wow
I see no problem with the way things are I have raised 5 kids all of them went to school and held a part time job and was involved in young marines, now 3 of my sons have served or are now serving one son put himself through school to become a electrician and my daughter is now in high school and young marines and works for a restaurant my point to all of this is discipline having served myself for 22 years discipline is the bedrock to kids achievement And this is not some government funded study this is experience, proven to work for my family.

Again experience based results are just that results. The scientific fact you speak of has no results, what im saying is let there be a guinea pig town since some
Of you like studies and give it a two year go with latter start time. I bet the findings would be the same kids would be tired because they will stay up latter because they can.

So far, our Howard County Start School Later petition has gotten 820 signers in just a week. Join us at: http://tinyurl.com/sslhoco

I must've been the odd ball - I always liked getting up early. Slept religiously every night 9 PM - 6 AM...I liked being the first one on the parking lot so I could get my favorite parking space!

@Polly, wow! I hope your children are not as rude and disrespecful as you seem to be.
Good for you for signing the petition if that makes you oh so proud!

You all are right and I respect your opinions however I do not agree with them. But I will vote against anything that will only serve to increase my already excessive taxes.

You're right and I take it back. I haven't signed it yet and I won't. I firmly believe that kids get babied way too much these days. You think a later start time will help? The studies may show they need more sleep but they won't get it, unless you start school at 4pm for them. They still won't go to bed early enough because now they'll have more time to play computer games and sit in chat rooms and hang out with friends.

@Elle. The idea is that they still go to bed on time assuming their parents are functional.

Discipline? Do any of you realize how few of us in this country actually serve? It is not discipline and those of us who serve do so generation after generation. Do not confuse military service with discipline and do not confuse the issues here.

What is disturbing is how far behind our apprentice superintendent and her hired friend, Amani-Dove are in the understanding of the research which is where the cost comes from as they strugle to comprehend it. These discussions on patch and all the information being presented is exactly what the hcpss needs to make intelligent decisions for our children. The post about the "total package" being reassessed is the most accurate I have heard.

I will sign and promote your petition from Howard county, Mount Airy and urge all of you who believe this school system is so good and we should not tamper with it to educate yourselves as to just where we really are.

The idea that the only way to return to later, healthier school hours is to reroute or add buses at exorbitant costs is a myth. Communities that have put student health and well-being first have found a variety of creative solutions, sometimes even saving money in the process. Start School Later addresses this, and many other myths and misinformation that cloud this issue, on its website: http://www.startschoollater.net/myths-and-misconceptions.html#answer1

The issue of sleep deprivation is so critical that there is now legislation being introduced in the MD House of Delegates about it. Read up on HB 1462 and click the link below to tell your legislator to support HB 1462: www.blastroots.com/sslmd

thanks for the heads p maribel. I'll make sure to call to tell them to stop babying this new generation.

Thank you, Brook, for trying to steer the conversation back to fact vs. opinion. It is so much easier for people to claim their experience is universally true, but decisions should be made on evidence. I agree, the evidence supports medical fact that teenagers are not just young adults; they have different physical needs because they are not done growing, even if they seem adult-sized. If a simple thing like a half-hour later start time would help them, we owe it to them to seriously consider it. A knee-jerk "we've always done it this way" does not help anyone.

Here's an opinion from a modern 15 year old teenager: school is starting too early.

I choose to go to bed around 10-11PM, but I won't fall asleep until 12-1, sometimes even 2. What am I doing? Laying in bed, trying to fall asleep, Not playing games or watching videos or texting friends on my laptop/smartphone. Going to bed early simply doesn't work. Because I need to leave for the bus at 6:30 for a school starting at 7:25 that takes 10 minutes to drive to, I wake up at 5:30. WIth that being too early, I oversleep 30mins. and cut breakfast.

I get home around 2:30 after school. By 4:30, I'm passed out due to exhaustion. I'm not purposely trying to sleep. Without anyone or anything to wake me up, I wake up from my nap around 8PM to do my homework and eat dinner, then go back to bed and attempt to fall asleep, which, once again, doesn't occur until after several hours of laying in bed.

I've made another observation. After a 6 hour shift on Saturday, I can fall asleep at 11PM and wake wake up at 8AM with ease. In the morning, I feel very refreshed, a feeling I never get on a school morning.

"Afterschool sports!" - also has kids at school at 5AM for physical activity. They're up by 4:30
"Drugs/Sex!" - also occurs AT SCHOOL
"Younger siblings!" teach them to watch themselves
"Babied" - Because bullying/family issues/eating disorders is worse than ever
"Work world" - College classes generally start around 10AM
"I could do it" teen life has changed since you were 16

as a highschooler of riverhill highschool in Howard county, I think the main problem is the cirriculum overload. I try to sleep earlier when I can, but there is just too much homework. it's all I do when I come home from school is homework and studying. several of my friends and me have had breakdowns from the amount of work they give us at school and at home. Changing the school time may work but the main problem is the homework they assign that make the students, who put schoolwork first, stay up extremely late. also, to the parents who have Teen in highschool, don't force us to sleep earlier because sometimes it's required for us to stay up all night to do schoolwork.